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 Funsho Olokesusi wrote:"
susanschaller wrote about going from I to We. Seems very simple but friends i put it to you that is a whole journey between those two words. in between is a gully that has swallowed lots of lives, dreams, potentials, oppurtunities. There is a fragment of you (what makes you complete) in another. Being able to live for other people is living your life to the fullest. Your kind deeds are coiled up in a boomerang it always bounces back at your with greater force. Add value to someone everyday of your life"

Thank you Funsho! This is one of the most important comments I've read here. I thought there was something wrong with me that I didn't "get it" right off. I have spent my entire life trying to cross that gully; trying to climb out of that gully that I was born into; that I fell into. Trapped. But perhaps no longer. I will learn to soar above.

Gracias! Equals Grace. To the Divine, Please show me The Way.

"The winds of grace blow all the time; all we need do is set our sails."

bob sauerbrey wrote:  "This is at the heart of being real:  Forgive...why?....because there is no one to blame."

Well. That makes sense. I was actually able to do that ONCE IN MY LIFE, with a person who was so damaged and "evil" that I knew he could NOT make "right decisions." That he was ALWAYS going to "do the wrong thing." He couldn't help himself. He was "bad to the bone."

He was furious when I said that, but I was so calm at the time... I always remember this because later when he robbed me, tried to kill me, tried to get me put in jail, tried to destroy me to make him "just like me" none of it mattered. I was hurt at first, thinking he was a "friend" that I was "trying to save" when in fact I ended up learning how to "save myself." By staying AWAY from "bad people." They are the way they are.

Using Bob's analogy, just because my own parents and siblings might fall into that same category, doesn't mean I should blame them or be angry at them, I guess. They are the way they are.

Nothing and no one to blame. Damaged goods is damaged goods, and just because they are damaged doesn't mean I am too.

Amen. Show us The Way. Gracias is Grace.

 Somik, I will re-read all the responses here, including your own. But it's like seeing Mars from afar.

 "Nobody is interested in hurting you, nobody is positively waiting to hurt you..."

I really can't understand how you could possibly make this statement. With all the cruelty and wars, personal, political, religious and governmental, it makes no sense to say that people are "not wanting to hurt you." Was 9-11 just an "ego thing" in our imaginations? Is all the destruction we in the United States have caused upon the war just in "their imaginations?

What are you saying here? This is why I have a hard time with the "everything is me" part of the meditation community. I must live in a completely different world than the person who made this statement. I really don't understand. Please explain.

Conrad wrote: "Zen …insists that the whole trouble is just our failure to realize that there is no problem, and of course, this means that there is no solution either.”

      “…A solution to the great problem of life, is not solving it all: the not solving is really the solving. The wise man does not pursue wisdom but lives his life and therein precisely does his wisdom lie.  The wisdom that Faust comes to in the end, Zen starts with it... When an ordinary person becomes enlightened, he or she is a sage. When a sage becomes enlightened, he or she is an ordinary person.” Reducing desire and being in the present more often are great  for me."

 

Thank you! These are "words to the wise" and "words from the wise" and I can understand and take this to heart. Gracias!

 

"The winds of grace blow all the time; all we need do is set our sails."

"Look! LOOK! I insisted. Even my daughter looked up.  Right there, out of nowhere: a magical misty landscape. Fields moving off to infinity in muted purples and pastels, fuzzy in the haze, with clusters of tall lush tress, darkening and receding in the dusk. I turned the car engine off. All was silent in the hot summer air. Beside us a plum-colored river barely moved between a border of trees, its dark lazy water reflecting the last light of day."

What beautiful words... this I had to share. Gracias.

"...We have chosen to name this trend social healing partly because we see an evolving paradigm that is not fundamentally hinged around the dualities of good vs. bad and right vs. wrong, but is rather inclined toward viewing human conflict through the lens of wounding and healing. Social healing, then, is not guided by revenge, retribution or punishment, but rather by the compassionate response of relating to all people -- victims, transgressors and bystanders alike – as inextricably connected."

 

This is wonderful. This is something I can try. Thank you so much.

Thank you again Tristan, for your incredibly honest and thoughtful comments. I have been thinking about your words ever since. Much to learn here... so far to go, so little time (teaching an old dog new tricks?) but perhaps we have as many lifetimes as we need?  Gracias to everyone here.

"The winds of grace blow all the time; all we need do is set our sails."

Please show me The Way.

Yet what makes Martin Luther King's life "worthwhile" if he DID in fact practice nonviolence, and he was shot and killed for it in the end?

That's the part that I cannot understand. Are we to give up our "will to live" in the process? We who are still "attached to the physical world?"

Do we simply expect to "rise again?" I'm not that far along. I will fight back to preserve my own life. I fight fire with a nuclear bomb.

kvakutty wrote: "Non violence is the highest virtue. It means not haming another by thought word or deed..."

This sentence, in all it's stark reality and simplicity, really struck me.

I would say that I NEVER "harm another by deed" but I will ALWAYS harm another by word. In fact, I was raised that way, and I am completely justified in my own mind; it's instantaenous and it's so wrong. Now I really have something to think about. Think, Practice, Do. Become. Gracias, amigo.

 

Thank you Somik and everyone here for their take on the idea and practice of nonviolence. I am involved in a dispute right now with another nonprofit, and while I know that we are all (supposedly) working towards the same goal - that of "helping others," I can see that ego and defensiveness, hostility and fear is ruling the day. And I am playing a part in it with my own reaction. So I am reading all this with great eagerness, as I can't see a way out of this dark void I found myself thrown into (or jumped into, I don't know which), so this discussion carries great importance to me in the real world of NOW.

I will continue to read with interest and hope I can find what I came here to learn.

 

However, I can say with a certaintly, that I have NOT found that "kindness begets kindness" as you say. Did the "kind" and innocent Jews receive "kindness" at the hands of the Nazis, or did they all "deserve it" somehow via acts of karma?

That's where all this falls down for me. Along with the reaction and problems I am having with this current nonprofit, who apparently has something to hide. Did I bring that on myself by asking for information? Was I not "kind" enough in my simple, factual request?

 

How are we to maintain composure in the face of selfishness, iies, blame, shame, intimidation, threats and more? If someone throws a stick of dynamite over the fence into my yard, I am going to pick it up and return it. There is no way I would let someone blow me up out of "compassion" or any other reason. I don't start fights, but I will step up and put an end to them. I don't do it with force, but I use the opposition's own fear against them. They use their fear against themselves, and that is what finally makes them stop themselves.

How can that be wrong?

AtoZ wrote: "The utopian/fantastical ideas that offer yourself to the wild beasts to verify if they eat you OR Gandhi's suggestions to the jews to offer themselves to Hitler are non-sensical at worst and naive at best and have nothing to do with reality OR the moral laws of the universe in my opinion."

 

THANK YOU. These kinds of statements and this kind of thinking is what previously kept me away from the meditation / nonviolent movement. It's "utopian/fantastical" and ridiculous.

 

Where did a story get started about monks "offering themselves to wild beasts to be eaten out of compassion" get started? And that the hungry beasts refused to eat them? Even St. Francis did not go that far.

 

Whenever I think I can't take anymore, someone comes in with reason and intelligence, and excellent explanations, such as AtoZ has. THANK YOU. I can stay here a little longer and learn something in the process.

 

I like the idea of practicing nonviolence while using necessary force, only when required, and without anger or hatred in one's heart. That's the part I have to learn. Thank you for these reminders and for helping me with this.

A to Z wrote: "An immature or unevolved bully can only understand force"

 

Thank you. NOW I feel I can be part of a "non-violent movement," knowing I don't have to sit there and take it, and let them kill me in the process. The trick is to withstand and overpower, when necessary, the bully without hatred and by doing the least amount of harm possible. Using the least amount of force necessary. Having grown up in an extremely violent household, I learned early on that I had to stand up for myself or be killed. I could never understand the "turn the other cheek" business until I read this exchange.

Thank you!

 

The winds of grace blow all the time; all we need do is set our sails."

 

Please show me The Way.

What an incredible discussion here! I have had many experiences involving "light" and I can attest to being quite imbalanced. (Thank you for not using the word "crazy.") I never asked for these experiences; they came unbidden. However, they have kept me searching for the Light outside of the Darkness I have all too often found myself in; a darkness of the mind.

 

I am so glad you are posting these discussions for all of us who can't be there... they are *almost* as good as the real thing. I feel that I am being given a chance to learn from many different viewpoints, all from the comfort - or distance - of my home. Gracias amigos; bendiciones. Little by little Grace will come.

 

"The winds of grace blow all the time. All we need do is set our sails."

Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa ~ Gospel of Ramakrishna

Chris, what you are saying makes so much sense. There have been instances where I could not be angry at someone who tried to hurt me (threatened to kill me, actually) because I knew that this person was mentally ill or simply no good. I really believe this was a devil's disciple, and could not help himself. He would ALWAYS make the "wrong choice." He could do nothing but evil. It was his nature. But how in the world does one "take a beating from someone and still look him in the eyes with love?" What am I missing that I am one of those who can't force myself to wish well one who delivers a blow?" You point out that "it either naturally arises from a deep commitment to values or it doesn't --" but does that mean I have no commitment to values? I must be so far off the mark as to not be able to recognize any of this notion of "love for one's enemies" as I simply cannot see my way clear to understand that those that I trusted have betrayed me and tried to destroy me. The addicted devil that pretended to be a "friend" couldn't help himself - or did not want to help himself - given the horrendous environment he was raised in. But I come from an upper-middle class environment of education and religion, and these people are in many ways WORSE thant that self-professed "gutter rat" was. These people are hypocrites to the extreme, and they are in positions of some power. How to "look at them with eyes of love" when they are bent on destroying anyone who stands in their way of the lies that they tell and the hypocrisies they promote? Are we supposed to look at Hitler with "eyes of love?"   I remember reading a story about the letters Gandhi wrote to Hitler, calling him "friend." As if that was going to stop that cruel and heartless, mentally ill madman. Is that what we are supposed to do? How to find compassion for people who "should know better" when it does not... [View Full Comment]

Chris, what you are saying makes so much sense. There have been instances where I could not be angry at someone who tried to hurt me (threatened to kill me, actually) because I knew that this person was mentally ill or simply no good. I really believe this was a devil's disciple, and could not help himself. He would ALWAYS make the "wrong choice." He could do nothing but evil. It was his nature.

But how in the world does one "take a beating from someone and still look him in the eyes with love?" What am I missing that I am one of those who can't force myself to wish well one who delivers a blow?"

You point out that "it either naturally arises from a deep commitment to values or it doesn't --" but does that mean I have no commitment to values? I must be so far off the mark as to not be able to recognize any of this notion of "love for one's enemies" as I simply cannot see my way clear to understand that those that I trusted have betrayed me and tried to destroy me.

The addicted devil that pretended to be a "friend" couldn't help himself - or did not want to help himself - given the horrendous environment he was raised in. But I come from an upper-middle class environment of education and religion, and these people are in many ways WORSE thant that self-professed "gutter rat" was. These people are hypocrites to the extreme, and they are in positions of some power. How to "look at them with eyes of love" when they are bent on destroying anyone who stands in their way of the lies that they tell and the hypocrisies they promote? Are we supposed to look at Hitler with "eyes of love?"

 

I remember reading a story about the letters Gandhi wrote to Hitler, calling him "friend." As if that was going to stop that cruel and heartless, mentally ill madman. Is that what we are supposed to do? How to find compassion for people who "should know better" when it does not arise "naturally?" Are we to have compassion for the pit bulls and the vipers of this world?

 

And if so, how does that change things? We are smiling at them as we die from their bites?

 

I am such a novice at all this. I can barely understand a word people are saying here, and I have heard it all my life. The reality is that I know nothing and don't know what good any of this really does. But I can't stop trying. I am grateful for discussions such as these. Maybe light will be shed in the dark corners and rooms in my mind.

 

 

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Thank you Rambo. I am trying to do this every day. Now if I could just figure out "how." I am trying to do just this: " Courage means to act in spite of your fear and building it is just like building a muscle - it requires practice." I have always said that the only real antagonist I have is my self. If I didn't exactly create my own monsters, I certainly have fed and watered them!

Now on to meditation on how to give up my anger, fear and resentments. God grant me peace and show me the way. Amen. Aaaaaaa OOoooooo MMMMMMmmmmmmmmmm

Thank you Rambo. It is very hard for me, if not impossible for me, to see cruel and angry people as "suffering." In fact, I think they are enjoying it quite a bit! That's the description of a SADIST and they do exist. That's the description of a narcissist or a borderline personality, who ENJOY hurting others as it relieves whatever pressure they feel inside. They are fine afterwards, while the other person is left to lick their wounds and try to staunch the bleeding.

But since ALL religions seem to talk about forgiveness in the way that you do, I am going to keep on "giving it a try." I have yet to find the key to unlock this door, but someone above talked about "meditating" on the parts of a passage they did not understand, "until it was clear." Or something along those lines.

I swear that the TIGER in me wants only to smash those people into oblivion and put an "end to the problem." Yet I know that can't really be an answer either, as it falls into "an eye for an eye" theory. I would like to take TWO EYES for an eye, to tell you the truth.

HOW TO STAND UP FOR MYSELF, AND HOW TO MOVE ON?

I have struggled with this ALL MY LIFE.

Pancho, re-reading your comment (after the spam comment came in today): it all sounds good, especially the part about "family." But when you come from a TOXIC family, how are we supposed to know how to treat people as "brothers & sisters?" That is not always a good thing. Forgiving them just allows them to continue the mistreatment. I only know how to stay away from them or return the bombs they throw at me. And Ghandi and the others were killed by "brothers & sisters," if "everyone" is family. What good did it do either of them, or us? It is a cold and cruel and heartless world we live in. Outside of "the mind." And perhaps in it.

Wow. That's what I call a RESPONSE. Taking the High Road and the Long View.

Now on to read "Gandhi and Hitler."

Gracias. Gratitude. Blessings All Around. CT

I can understand the part about the elephant poo: that's essentially what we will be doing when we build houses and schools with used tires and plastic water bottles filled with sand or dirt. That's all to the good, certainly.

 

But you also wrote: "Catherine, for any solution to be found, you will have to find unity with those who are the perceived victims, and those who are the perceived perpetrators. It is a partial view that sees one as good and not the other."

 

How do I find unity with people who tried to kill me or destroy me or harm me in some way? HOW TO DO THAT? What am I supposed to see as "good" in that? Are the Nazi Jew survivors supposed to see "good" in their captors?